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Topic: Neutral Swap Feedback?  (Read 3566 times)
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jadey_mcshadey
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« on: August 26, 2005 09:30:09 PM »

I have a problem in a swap that's going on at the moment. What do I do about people who do the wrong thing, but eventually do the right thing?

Like the girl who sent her package but lied to me about getting a DC or someone who sends, eventually, but after no communication for weeks, or people who just make your swap experience hell?

I would like to be able to give someone neutral feedback, rather than just positive feedback with comments, though I have to admit that I think I've just organised the worst behaved swap ever.

Any thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2005 07:35:12 AM »

Hmmm.. like on Ebay.
I think it wouldn't work here, because unfortunately here our feedback governs whether or not we can participate in more swaps. All positives and we can, a negative and we can't. If we had a neutral, would it just be a warning to the organizer? Would they have the option to turn away that particular swapper based on the notes left by the past organizer?

I think it would end up being too hard because if you accidentally pissed someone off too much, they could give you a neutral- which would "tarnish" your swap rep. Organizers are less likely to slap a Negative on someone because they know the effect of it, and only do it if it was necessary. If neutral was an option, I think a lot of people would get it- which in the long run may not be too fair.
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2005 08:08:39 AM »

I think it would serve as a warning to other organisers. There's nothing to say that you have to let someone in your swap if they have all positive.

I would hope that no one would give neutral just because they were pissed at someone. I'm talking about people who blatantly lie, who take weeks to send, but who do eventually do the right thing. Should I just give them negatives?

If there are issues with feedback, mods can change it.
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ilovepaper
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2005 08:19:24 AM »

I don't swap much so my opinion may not weigh in but I think you have a great idea Jadey. Just because the people eventually come through does not make for a positive swap experience for their partner or organizer. Future swapees should know who they are dealing with ahead of time, for instance they can expect to get their package late (or not get any response when their package is received, not communiate, or ________ whatever the case is). I think the feedback should be honest or else it's worthless. On the other hand, I would hate to give somebody neutral or bad feedback and hurt their feelings..... which is why I don't swap much or organize.
Anyway, I'm sorry that you are having a bad time with your current swap, I hope it all works out.
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2005 09:46:48 AM »

I'm talking about people who blatantly lie, who take weeks to send, but who do eventually do the right thing. Should I just give them negatives?

I think that's an issue you have to take up with mods.
Personally, I see where you're coming from with the neutral feedback and overall I like the idea- as it does serve as a warning for the organizers. But I just see there being issues with it. As I said, here feedback actually governs whether or not we can swap- so neutral would be (obviously) an between... and free for people to interpret as they wish. If that's the case, you could give the person you're having a problem with a positive (since they did send in the long run) but in the notes detail that they lied, and sent weeks late.
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005 08:58:01 PM »

But what's the point of giving someone a positive who didn't communicate, says they sent late (but their swap partner received nothing), didn't get a DCN, had swap angels cover them, and then much later (after the swap is closed) sends some stuff out?

I can't see any way that's a positive.  I know for a fact that there are swappers out there taking advantage of the system in just this way -- and they deserve negative feedback, in my opinion.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2005 06:52:00 AM »

True, but what I understand from the "How to participate in/organize a swap" post:

"If you don't fulfill your end of the swap and you don't let the swap organizer know that you're going to be late, you'll get Negative Feedback and you won't be able to sign up for any more swaps until you clear this up."

This implies (to me) that once it's cleared up, your negative will be changed to a positive and you can swap again.

It's pretty crappy that people lie, have other people cover for them, etc and then finally send out much after the swap is closed. I think that deserves a Negative too. But like I said, that piece up there makes it seem like once they've finally sent they can have a positive to swap again.
It's a case by case basis. If that person was such a problem, something should be done about him/her. Talk to the Admin if you feel they don't deserve a Pos.
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2005 01:46:12 PM »

i like the neutral idea.  it seems like organizers (i'm organizing one now and i'll get on the feedback ball in a minute) almost never leave comments with feedback.  i've puts tons of effort into everything i've made, and been a day late in mailing a couple of times, but i let both the organizer and the partner know, and that package is out asap the next day.  but, it seems like lately alot of swappers have been half-heartedly doing things.  one of my partners is almost a week late is mailing, and i've heard nothing.  another one never asked me anything even though i sent a list of questions, and that sorta bothers me because it's like they're not that concerned about making something i'll like.  on the other side, i've had partners who were good or amazing with communication.  so, i think either a new rating system would be helpful, or organizers need to leave truthful comments.  say they did send, but weren't good about communicating, or their craft was poorly done, or maybe they were super-stellar.  future organizers could match people up of similar par.  either way, it would help organizers and swappers frustration and dissapointment. 
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Kristen81
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006 07:59:34 PM »

I really think this should be added as a swap feedback option.  I am currently in a swap now (not organizing) and the deadline was TWO WEEKS AGO!!! and there is a list of NINE people who have not sent yet. 

People are totally taking advantage of the fact that they will still get positive feedback even if they ship out super late. 

There should be some sort of system in place that even if the swap is eventually completed and the late swapper sends we can leave them crappy feedback.

I was thinking that Neutrals will work out well.  Maybe once a swapper gets a certain number of Neutrals (two or three) they have to be a Swap Angel or send in the Unconditional/Birthday Swap before they can join another swap. 

Just makes sense to me, why should these people get to keep swapping and sending weeks late???
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006 06:19:49 AM »

even with the understanding that real life will throw curveballs (we just had the tranny drop out of Lance's car, but it was in the parking lot, not on the road, so he's fine.) there is no excuse for consistent late sending.

The comments section really needs to get put to more use, both for good and not so good remarks.

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Kristen81
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2006 07:22:07 AM »

The comments section is good but even if an organizer puts "sent three weeks late"  that doesn't prevent the person from swapping ind sending late again and again...
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2006 08:10:41 AM »

true.  But it does serve as reference to later organizers who should be checking and going "hey this person always sends late, maybe I shouldn't let them in"  the empty space tells no tales until something (good or bad) is put In it.

If the feedback isn't getting checked rubber stamping 3 inch high red letters saying BAD SWAPPER isn't going to help.

Just playing devils advocate

Mieka
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Kristen81
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2006 10:12:46 AM »

That's true, I've seen people with Neg's get into other swaps...it's just two bad people can't take a few seconds to check it would save other organizera a lot of headache.
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2006 10:34:41 AM »

I suspect most organizers do check the profiles, but we all want to believe the best of our fellows and sometimes there is a good reason for a short flurry of late sends and no sends (like being KO'ed by a drunk driver and being in the hospital for over a week, complication in a pregnancy or a really bad allergic reaction, or worse having someone in the family die) but that is a short term thing. 

Filling in the blank on the feedback forms would tell folks a LOT.  Is it just something in real life got hella nasty, does it coincide with final in school (or the start of a school term) or is it a regular constant thing.  Filling in that black would take some burden off the organizers checking their people.  Meaning they could just check the profiles of prospective swappers and only PM other organizers if they had a specific question (So-in-so has always gotten positives until SWAP X and PM the organizer and ask if they know why, if there is a good valid reason then let them in if not maybe think about not letting them in

No matter what organizing is a LOT of work, but I think we *have* the tools if we could (would?) just use them more effectively

Erm.. shutting up now..

Mieka
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2006 11:10:44 AM »

I think you are right! I have been dealing with this kind of problem for a few weeks (you know Mikaiyawa). And Kristen81 I am sorry about your slippers!

The problem I have noticed is that in the swap info guide there is very clear instructions for participating, and how to organize a swap until it gets to the end:

"If someone failed to fulfill their swap obligation and refused to communicate that they have a good reason or that they just need to have the deadline extended, then they get Negative Feedback.

If they communicated that they are going to be late, hold off on giving feedback until they do or not come though on their word.

Otherwise they get Positive Feedback."


And when filling out the "swap progress and feedback" sheet it says comments "only use this when swap is over"

OK, but what is "failed to fulfill their swap obligation"? And when does "communicating that they are going to be late become failed to fulfill swap obligations? That is completely up to the organizer and it would be so much easier if there were rules. Like when does not responding to Pm's become negative feedback? Like Didn't send on date and no response after a week becomes negative feedback no matter what. What is the accepted extention for a person who asked for an extention? I know that there are always exceptions to the rules, but if you keep in contact about needing more time and get it, you have to think about the recipient who is basically forced to agree to wait. There should also be a rule for organizers on a time frame for giving feedback, so that people aren't "in progress" FOREVER. Yes you have to check potential swappers, but after you have checked and added this person they may have gotten negative feedback and they only way to know is constantly checking. People seem so afraid of negative feedback, but the rules state that all you have to do to have your feedback changed is to fulfill your end of the swap, maybe the negative feedback should be used to halt a person from entering more swaps if they are late on another one. Or the comments should be used "in progress" instead of only at the end to notify other organizers that this person needs to finish this swap before joining more. Maybe there should be a specific set of comments so that everyone knows what the comments mean, some people are really clear when giving comments, some people don't use the comments, so the no comment for that swap isn't a sign of a bad swapper.
So many questions!
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2006 07:56:54 PM »

Quote
And Kristen81 I am sorry about your slippers!

He he he...I was in NO WAY referring to you in this, you have been communicating with me the whole way so it's SUPER cool.

I'm mainly refering to the HP swaps that were doing right now, we have round 2 up and running now (fave house) and I'm reluctant to let in the people who haven't even sent yet in the first one (fave character). 
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2006 08:59:15 AM »

I can understand that.

 Maybe explain to the swappers that you would like to see proof they sent (DC#) *before* letting them take on another project.  Failing that it would be not let them in.  Is it just that pair or have the profiles left you a hinkey feeling for more than just those two?

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2006 09:10:07 AM »

I've wondered about this too - the first few swaps I've done everyone sent on time or close to it - but the last three swaps it was a very long drawn out deal - most were pming but still sending weeks (mths) late. only ended up with three flakers out the 3 swaps which isn't horrible but it makes getting the angel packages so much later as I couldn't fully determ if they were going to flake or come thru (they were pming at first) So a full two mths later angel packages are finally going out.

The neutral would have been helpful with one new swapper - she said she sent but no DC - her partner never rec. and she did pm me several times - if her package got lost then she got a neg for not keeping up with her DC number now granted I always keep all my pm's till I get postive feedback but not everyone does - in this one case being able to give neutral with comments would have been nice.

makes it super hard to wrap up a swap - so sticking to paper art swaps for now - they should be fast and easy so people are able to send out on time.  - well hopefully    Smiley
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2006 12:09:15 PM »

As someone who sent a week late in the Fave Character swap, I can say I would have NO PROBLEM at all if there was neutral feedback in my profile or comments reflecting my late send-out.

I sent late.  I suck for sending late.  (Helath probs + work hecticness hit all at once.)  I'm on a self-imposed swap hiatus until I'm caught up on ALL my swaps.  And Kristen is right -- it's NOT fair to people who have their acts together to wait ... and wait ... and wait.

In the meantime, please use the comments field.  If anyone complains, send 'em to me.  *cracks knuckles*

~ Cindy
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006 02:34:20 AM »

here's what bothers me.  i've been late on swaps.  i work 50 hours a week, during the hours that the post office is open.  if i don't have my craft done by saturday morning, then i have to wait another week to send.  it just happens.  but i have ALWAYS been in contact with my partners.  they always know what's up.  and they're fine with it.  so if they're fine with it, i don't think it's a problem.
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2006 02:38:49 AM »

I'm in a similar boat, believe it or not, except that my schedule varies from 30 to 70 hours per week, and I don't always know ahead of time what sort of week it's going to be.  I stay in contact with my partner & organizer, as well, BUT that doesn't change the fact that I'm sending late.

The bigger problem seems to be that people send out late and, instead of focusing their energy on finishing their swaps, they sign up for more, compounding the problem.  Neutral feedback and/or use of comment fields might curb that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the problem entirely, in which case, I retract my previous statement.
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2006 02:42:29 AM »

well i'd be totally fine with being banned from signing up for another swap if i were sending late for one i was already in.  maybe that's the perfect solution.   because i really feel like if there are circumstances that are just completely beyond my control, "neutral" feedback would deter me from signing up for swaps. 
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2006 02:53:32 AM »

i think this is a good idea. i just organized a swap where every single person sent late and some people dropped off the face of craftster. others don't even want to communicate despite repeated DCN's. one of my swappers sent but i could never find out from her or her partner if they had received... i felt kind of bad giving her negative feedback, but that's the rules! you need to communicate to get good feedback. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2006 02:59:08 AM »

On re-reading, I think I may have misunderstood the premise ...

what *I* was thinking was that NEUTRAL feedback would stop you from signing up for any more swaps, but isn't the "permanent black mark" that NEGATIVE is (so maybe organizers would be more willing to use it).

So in a case where someone sends a week late but is in communication with partner/organizer, they get a Neutral until the package is received, with it changed to Positive with Comments after the partner receives.

Or maybe it's 2 am and I really shouldn't try to think, let alone type ...
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« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2006 03:18:27 AM »


what *I* was thinking was that NEUTRAL feedback would stop you from signing up for any more swaps, but isn't the "permanent black mark" that NEGATIVE is (so maybe organizers would be more willing to use it)

actually, a negative is not permanent, 'cause an organizer can change it at any time; i was kinda concerned about giving them out, but the mod that advised me on it told me that it was totally changeable.
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« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2006 10:11:35 AM »

actually, a negative is not permanent, 'cause an organizer can change it at any time; i was kinda concerned about giving them out, but the mod that advised me on it told me that it was totally changeable.

Huh.  I wonder why folks are so reluctant to give them, then?
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2006 10:53:22 AM »

because it's "mean" and no one likes being "mean" even if it is for solid cause.

add to that hurt feelings and how reactive folks can be when it's their feeling that got munched. no matter how hard folks try to explain the why's, someone is going to have an "everyone HATES me" snit and stir up a huge fuss...

I get my feelings slapped I walk away and do something else until i can think things through and see if the "slap" was *really* intended as a slap or if it was me being hypersensitive...  But I've also done juried works shows where the judge *hated* my guts (the lets throw some gas on the fire and see if we can get the fire to flare up in your face kind of *hate*) so I've seen how nasty a small portion of the population can be (no one from here though) and can easily see why folks would  NOT want to be categorized as anything like them.

Negatives here really are more a slap on the fingers after being caught in the cookie jar *again* right before supper than a "chop the thieving hand off the infidel" thing, but folks don't always take it as a gentle reminder to not "spoil" things, they take it as a personal attack.

Mieka
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2006 08:54:06 PM »

I was thinking Neutral feedback wouldn't stop people from joining more swaps until a certain number were awarded.  But them someone would need to monitor than (a Mod maybe). 

There should just be a way to attach feedback that doesn't necessarily stop people from swapping but puts a warning out there.  And maybe organizers who are organizing a more complicated swap (FOC, My Country doesn't have that) might wish NOT to include those who have Neutral feedback. 


Quote
here's what bothers me.  i've been late on swaps.  i work 50 hours a week, during the hours that the post office is open.  if i don't have my craft done by saturday morning, then i have to wait another week to send.  it just happens.  but i have ALWAYS been in contact with my partners.  they always know what's up.  and they're fine with it.  so if they're fine with it, i don't think it's a problem.

A lot of the time my partners have contacted me and said they will be sending late (some with really good reasons, like yours) and I have to say it's ok, 'cause really what choice do I have, it's gonna be late either way   Cheesy  If I say it's NOT ok it's not like they are going to get it out any sooner.  I've sent late too, and I feel like crap.  But for repeat offenders there should really be something we can do, if every person that eventually sends gets a positive, that sucks. 
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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2006 09:49:19 PM »

I was thinking Neutral feedback wouldn't stop people from joining more swaps until a certain number were awarded.  But them someone would need to monitor than (a Mod maybe). 

There should just be a way to attach feedback that doesn't necessarily stop people from swapping but puts a warning out there.  And maybe organizers who are organizing a more complicated swap (FOC, My Country doesn't have that) might wish NOT to include those who have Neutral feedback.

If the participant is "In Progress," but they are in communication with you & for some reason they are sending 3 weeks late, couldn't you put the comments as "IN COMMUNICATION, BUT WILL BE SENDING 3 WKs. LATE"?  This would flag organizers that are looking to approve them for new swaps, that perhaps they don't need to join an additional swap at the time.

I think that would serve the same purpose as creating another feedback option (neutral).  Then once they sent, they can have a positive, but be sure to update the comments appropriately.  Possibly..."SENT 3 WKs LATE, but great package."

I don't ever see it as an option for a mod to monitor all profiles.  That made my head hurt just thinking about it...  Cheesy  I can't accurately tell you the the ratio of moderator:active feedback profiles, but I can imagine it's pretty crazy.  But if organizers are looking at profiles before they approve the individuals, I don't see how using the comments field for this purpose wouldn't be of some sort of help.

A lot of the time my partners have contacted me and said they will be sending late (some with really good reasons, like yours) and I have to say it's ok, 'cause really what choice do I have, it's gonna be late either way   Cheesy  If I say it's NOT ok it's not like they are going to get it out any sooner.  I've sent late too, and I feel like crap.  But for repeat offenders there should really be something we can do, if every person that eventually sends gets a positive, that sucks. 

I think if everyone used the comments field in the manner I described above, it would be very easy to notice if someone has a pattern of sending late.  This would not only help future organizers, but us mods as well!  Smiley

If you are an organizer & notice an excessive repeat offender you can always contact a mod to investigate and/or take this into consideration when approving and partnering your participants.

Even if someone has 6 "SENT LATE" comments, it may or may not mean they are a habitual late sender.  All 6 occurrences may have occurred in the same 2 week timespan due to a family emergency or something of the like.  If the 6 "SENT LATE" comments span over months & month, well, then that's a different story.  Smiley  All of these things have to be taken into consideration.

That's just my ...I hope it does more help than harm!  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2006 10:00:30 PM »

Ohh!  I have also seen...

It was a month past the ship date, they were communicating with the organizer, but weren't able to give a estimated ship date yet, so they were given a NEGATIVE, but this was placed in the comments field...
Hasn't shipped although communication is going well. I will change to positive when item is received.

This prevented them from entering other swaps until their obligation was cleared.  That particular example still isn't cleared, but if it ever is, the comments should definitely make note that they eventually sent, but it was X weeks late/X months late/whatever.
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2006 10:53:52 PM »

sweets4ever those are great ideas - thanks so much - never thought about using the comments during the swap process - that will help a bunch I think.
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