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Topic: Reducing a Semi-Circular Cane?  (Read 8941 times)
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atomicjam
« on: November 23, 2009 10:41:38 PM »

Hi,  Smiley I've just finished making my first (ok third) polymer clay cane!!!  Grin I'm really happy with the results. The colors that came out of the skinner blend are amazing.  I only just got a PM so am pretty new to all this.

The cane I've made is a semi-circular rainbow cane.  It looks pretty nice as is, but now I need to reduce it and am not sure of the best way to do it.
Does anyone know a good way to reduce a semi-circular cane??  I cant find a guide anywhere.  

There are actually two semi-circle canes (opposite colors on each) and I thought of putting them together to make one circle, but dont want them to stick and dont think I could separate them once reduced.  I thought I could put some foil or film between them but am not sure how that would affect the reduction.  Presumably you can't do this as the film wont reduce and will crinkle/fold.

Here are some pics...





Any suggestions??

Thanks,
Tom
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009 02:03:24 PM by atomicjam » THIS ROCKS   Logged
Diane B.
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009 10:43:14 AM »

Hi Tom, and welcome to cane-making!... truly one of the most fun things to do with polymer clay Grin

There are ways of reducing hemispherical canes, but in the future you might want to save yourself trouble and just make each rainbow-color orientation as one round cane, then cut it in half lengthwise after reducing.  (That kind of cane, when round, would be called a "wrapped" cane --multi-wrapped in this case-- or a "bullseye" cane.) You should just end up with 2 lengths of the same rainbow color orientation.
Then do the same thing and make a separate cane to end up with 2 lengths of the 2nd rainbow-color orientation.
There are lessons and info on those kinds of canes here:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/canes--instructions.htm
...click on Bullseye under the category for Wrapped canes... then also scroll down to the links on "multiple wraps"
  
Whether you'd want to do that could depend though on how small you want to reduce the cane and how precise the shape you need.  Generally, round canes (or solid-color logs) can be cut lengthwise most easily if they're short relative to their width, then stood on one end for cutting (rather than laid down on the work surface for cutting-- though that can work too if total precision isn't needed, if the cane is cooled first, and if a long sharp blade is used, etc.).
You can also use the "trough" method for cutting canes lengthwise while on their sides... create a raw clay trough as long as your cane and a tad wider than its diameter, powder the trough with cornstarch, place the round (or hemisphere) cane inside the trough, then use a long blade to cut down through cane and trough... the cane lengths should separate easily from the trough.
You might want to check out these pages for info on cutting canes this way, and just tips on cutting canes in general:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/canes--instructions.htm
...under the category Other Symmetrical Geometric Canes, click on the subcategory Wedges... same page as above, but different category
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/Canes--general.htm
... check out Cutting Canes, etc.

Some ways to reduce already-hemispherical canes though would be to put them together as you said but with something like  Kato's Repel Gel between them or even Vaseline, or a thick coating of cornstarch.  I guess you could also add Repel Gel around the exterior of the joined hemispheres too, then wrap with a scrap layer to hold the hemispheres together better as you reduce. Or some people just add a bunch of scrap clay in or around parts of a cane that are odd-shaped (not round, square or triangular), reduce, then carefully cut away the scrap clay.
You could also try putting a piece of paper etc between the two hemispheres (with or without a bit of cornstarch/etc on the edges), then reduce a bit, remove paper and add smaller strip of paper, reduce a bit... repeat/repeat.
If you're only using rolling to reduce, that might work differently than using pulling/stroking motions to reduce though for any method above.

There's lots of info on various ways to reduce canes and deal with odd-shaped canes, on these pages too:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/canes--reducing.htm ...check out the various techniques and tips
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/Canes--general.htm ...click on Odd-Shaped Canes


HTH,

Diane B.

Quote
Here are some pics (I'm not allowed to post photos proper.  Sad So can only post links, sry)

P.S.  You can make those 10 posts anywhere at Craftster, and Replies count too, so it's pretty easy to just pick and few boards and get up to 10 Wink ... I'd suggest that once you've done that, you also come back to your posts and substitute actual photos for the links since you'll get many more looks that way, and would also be good for any later discussion about your questions/comments.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2009 10:48:04 AM by Diane B. » THIS ROCKS   Logged

POLYMER CLAY "ENCYCLOPEDIA" 
http://glassattic.com/polymer/contents.htm
few of my photos
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB
(had to move them from YahooPhotos, so many now without captions)
atomicjam
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009 02:50:08 PM »

Ok thank you Smiley   I will have a read of the Encyclopedia and have a think about which method to try.  Probably a layer of Vaseline or similar in-between.  Maybe this idea of using play-doe.

I realised after doing it I should have just made a whole bullseye or wrapped cane.  But thought I wouldn't have enough clay.    One benefit (luckily) of doing it in two halves was that I could match the layers up quite well.  Maybe building in sections like this, so that they match exactly, then joining, reducing and then splitting again will result in a well matched pattern of canes??  Maybe if your good then that's not necessary.  Huh

Must practice and build more canes...

And thanks again for all your great help  Grin
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009 03:22:00 PM »

Quote
Maybe this idea of using play-doe.

That might work well!... any of the air-dry clays would be less likely to stick to polymer clay.

Quote
I realised after doing it I should have just made a whole bullseye or wrapped cane.  . . .One benefit (luckily) of doing it in two halves was that I could match the layers up quite well.


Definitely not quite sure I'm understanding what you're describing in this part.  
When you say "match the layers up," are you talking about creating even (same-thickness) layers of colors around your original black center?  Or something else?  
(Doing a whole bullseye cane by creating "wraps" around a central round log does allow the layers to be the same thickness --or different thicknesses if you want...and the layers will all come out quite smooth and even as long as the ends of each wrap are butted to join them rather than being overlapped.)

Quote
Maybe building in sections like this, so that they match exactly, then joining, reducing and then splitting again will result in a well matched pattern of canes??  Maybe if your good then that's not necessary.

Do you mean building duplicate sections (same color orientation), then joining/reducing/splitting? (...and splitting in which direction?)
Or do you mean building different color orientations but with the same widths of layers, then joining/reducing/splitting?  
I think I got lost somewhere  Shocked.  Could you explain again, and say what you'd be ending up with, or be trying to achieve, by doing this?   Or would you just be wanting to re-join lengths of identical canes together side by side to create multi-cane canes, or even symmetrical pattern canes? (that's done a lot for quite neat effects).

Diane B.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009 03:22:58 PM by Diane B. » THIS ROCKS   Logged

POLYMER CLAY "ENCYCLOPEDIA" 
http://glassattic.com/polymer/contents.htm
few of my photos
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB
(had to move them from YahooPhotos, so many now without captions)
atomicjam
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009 07:36:17 PM »

Ok, sorry if I was unclear...   I meant this...

Or do you mean building different color orientations but with the same widths of layers, then joining/reducing/splitting? 

A picture speaks a thousand words...      This is what I did. It maybe completely pointless doing it this way. I was making it up as I went along. But it seemed to help.

Because I wanted to make two separate canes that matched up to make one pattern (the S shape in piccy below) ( I want to learn to do really neat geometric patterns) I needed the layers on the two different canes to match in position and thickness.  Pointed out in the pic below...



So I made one big rainbow transition and split it in two length-ways.   Flipped one of them (or just started at the other end).  This was to make sure that both the different orientations of color in both the canes would have the same graduation (ish).  It was the same blend going into both canes.  Quick diagram so you know what I mean...



Then I made one hemisphere, similar to the stacking method, by just rolling a half log up the blend, slicing blend, and repeating all the way along.  Shown in bottom half of diagram above.

Then, when I made the second cane, I could see where to add the black layers by lining up both logs as shown below.



Now I've thought about it, you could probably just make a layered bulls-eye cane, and place it next to its partner to match the layers.  I didn't really need to do it hemispherically and probably made alot more work for myself, lol. Wouldn't be the first time.  But I did feel I had good control of the layers and their position, thickness, etc.

And I what I mean about joining/reducing/splitting is that if both the canes are joined (to make a circle) very accurately before reduction, then they will both be reduced the same amount at all points and will still match accurately after reduction.   I'd really like to know if this is true/worth it?  Would they match any better doing it this way?   Basically because I've never done it before and arn't confident I go for 'stabilizers' and try to measure and gauge everything, because I cant do it by ear (or eye).    It may of been pointless. I think I could have done layered bulls-eyes instead. I will try it that way with the next cane.

What do you think?? Pointless method?  Or will it help make more accurate patterns?  Huh
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Diane B.
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009 11:28:30 AM »

Sometimes it's almost impossible to be really clear about discussing very-specific things in polymer clay (especially caning!) because the people doing the disucssing may be using very different terminology for the same action/item/shape/etc (and newbies may not realize that certain terms have a specific meaning to clayers --though long-time clayers may also use way different terms!), and also because having those kinds of discussions requires a load of referential pronouns/etc.

I definitely don't want to put a dent in your enthusiasm or learning(!) and do want to answer any questions that I can, but I have to admit that I really feel kinda dumb because I'm not sure what you're saying in the various steps even after you went to all the trouble of adding graphics.  Embarrassed 

So... how about this? 
In your next response, start off by telling me exactly what shapes/sizes/etc you want to end up with, and also how that final result will be used (freestanding, sliced, sliced and rolled into another surface, combined with other canes or solid logs, etc., etc?).  That will orient me better from the start, I think, and give me perhaps a better way to follow your steps and questions.

Meanwhile, you might also want to check out some of the categories on this page, since matching up edges of cane lengths exactly (especially when they have elements which are supposed to "meet") is often a part of those, to see if that helps:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/canes--instructions.htm
...I'd suggest just clicking on the (non-broken) links under both the Symmetry & Repetition category and the Other Misc. Geometric Canes category (esp. Wedges/Spliced perhaps)... but also the Stripes category
Most of those do combine lengths of same or similar canes to create various symmetrical patterns, but most aren't trying to "butt" the ends of lines like you are, or to end up with non-round or square shapes like your S-curve shape if that's what you want your final result to be, which is not that common.

A couple of guys who used to call themselves City Zen Cane (CZC) back in the early days of polymer clay though did canes where diagonal lines lined up exactly.  I can't find any examples online of their "New Quilt" cane which would show that technique at it's most complex (though I actually have some slices of the design made by a friend I haven't taken photos of yet), but here are some of their similar things, and similar "chevron" and other designs made by others, if you want to check them out:
http://polymerartarchive.com/2008/03/21/more-early-images-cynthia-toops-and-city-zen-cane
(...click on the last 4 of the photos for some of CZC's canework which is similar)
Cindy P's 4 lengths of a diagonal stripes cane, combined together in an orienation which creates an on-point square
http://www.cindysartandsoul.com/images/canes/P1010032.jpg
Slavik Jablan's example of using a diagonal block of stripes, repeated in various overall orientations
http://members.tripod.com/~modularity/basis.htm ... http://members.tripod.com/~modularity/constr.htm
Helene G's interlocking chevron pattern on beads
http://www.polymerclaycentral.com/chall_oct01.html

You might also want to look at some simpler ways to create stacks of colored layers as S-curves/etc though shown in some of my old stuff here, but the original stacks were "thinned" quite a bit before folding (Photobucket enlargements are reallly hard on my images though so not sure how much detail you can see):
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB/canes
(...slices from the brown/orange/black/white cane in that pic were later turned into a bowl by one of the kids in a class I gave, and ended up looking "woody" and "woven":
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB/canes --center left)
Cane patterns called "brain canes" are made in a similar way.


Diane B.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009 11:34:10 AM by Diane B. » THIS ROCKS   Logged

POLYMER CLAY "ENCYCLOPEDIA" 
http://glassattic.com/polymer/contents.htm
few of my photos
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB
(had to move them from YahooPhotos, so many now without captions)
atomicjam
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009 02:10:10 PM »

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding. I've been away.      I've just had a re-read of this thread and I must apologise again.  I think I've been a little bit unclear. 

Basically the only reason I made the cane in a hemisphere is because I didn't have enough clay to make a full bullseye  (if I had wrapped the skinner blend around a fully cylindrical log, each layer would have been thinner as the diameter of the log would have taken up a greater length of the skinner blend (make sense?). 
And I was just trying to point out that making the cane in two halfs had the accidental bonus of allowing me to see, and match up, each half accurately as I built it.   
Anyway the important thing is the notion that I really should build this type of cane as a fully cylindrical bullseye.    And sorry if i use the wrong terminology. It may take me a while to unlearn what I naturally call this type of thing and learn the correct terms.

...In your next response, start off by telling me exactly what shapes/sizes/etc you want to end up with, and also how that final result will be used...

I don't have a clear goal or design in-mind at the moment. A few ideas for canes have crossed my mind.  But am not really sure where exactly i'm going yet.
Below is what I would really like to do. Please don't laugh at my naive ambition.   I know that I may never be able to produce work to this amazing standard but this is the type of thing I am aspiring to.  You may not like the style of these too much, i dont know.  But I found these pieces truly amazing.

This is some work by Jon Anderson...  Absolutely beautiful IMO.   That little fella's only a couple of inches long.



And here is a clock made by Tracy Pittendreigh.    Not really my style though beautiful non the less.  This just shows the type of item I would like to create. 



I hope Jon or Tracy don't mind me showing these pictures.

So i'm not to sure exactly what I'm trying to achieve at the moment. Just playing around really. I'm going to try and make one of the patterns using diagonal stripes that Slavik Jablan shows in the link you provided. If you have any advice on how to achieve this, that would be great.

Anyway thanks for helping out Diane,
Tom  Smiley
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Diane B.
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2009 12:38:16 PM »

Quote
Basically the only reason I made the cane in a hemisphere is because I didn't have enough clay to make a full bullseye  (if I had wrapped the skinner blend around a fully cylindrical log, each layer would have been thinner as the diameter of the log would have taken up a greater length of the skinner blend (make sense?).

I guess that makes sense but I'm not sure why you couldn't have just made a short fat cane the way you wanted, then reduced it to the length you needed and cut in half lengthwise for your solid-hemiphere shaped cane (or vice versa... cut in half then reduced).  Short fat canes are often the way to go anyway Cool, certainly for more complex ones.

Quote
And I was just trying to point out that making the cane in two halfs had the accidental bonus of allowing me to see, and match up, each half accurately as I built it.

Still not sure what you were try to "match up" to what, but unless that's important we don't need to worry about it.

Quote
And sorry if i use the wrong terminology. It may take me a while to unlearn what I naturally call this type of thing and learn the correct terms.

No apology necessary!  We all start there --in any endeavor, group, field, etc.

Quote
I don't have a clear goal or design in-mind at the moment. A few ideas for canes have crossed my mind.  But am not really sure where exactly i'm going yet.

That's how a lot of us feel, especially about caning.  There's just so much possible that we want to explore it all and not limit ourselves too much in the beginning.

Quote
Below is what I would really like to do. Please don't laugh at my naive ambition.  

Nothing wrong with ambition...lol.  You may get "there" or not, but realizing that some things may take a lot of patience and learning mean you really aren't being naive.  Lots of people end up making quite complex things, or just making them with great finishing detail or artistic expression, and they all start where you are.

Quote
I know that I may never be able to produce work to this amazing standard but this is the type of thing I am aspiring to.  You may not like the style of these too much, i dont know.  But I found these pieces truly amazing.
This is some work by Jon Anderson...


Yep, Jon has almost been in a caning category of his own for a long time, but certainly many other clayers have used slices from multiple canes to cover things or just over other clay base pieces (as well as make freestanding items like bowls, etc.) that way.  The ability to reduce canes can really make things look complex too.  His eye for contrast, color, etc., as well as his extreme precision, that makes his stuff really pop too.  (He still lives in Bali, I think, and has helpers or did if that makes you feel any better).  

Quote
And here is a clock made by Tracy Pittendreigh. Not really my style though beautiful non the less.  This just shows the type of item I would like to create.

Tracy Pittendreigh's clocks (aka Tracy Blease) are really cool (I do like them) and they're a lot like Cassie Doyon's older clocks that seem to be gone from online (think I have the right person...my links for those are all now dead).  Don't know if Cassie's still making clocks though or not.  
If you're interested in making polymer  clocks in general though, you might want to check out some of the ones I still have links for (plus info) on this page:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/covering.htm ...click on Clocks
...and there are many examples of polymer clay clocks here too... all styles:
http://www.google.com/images?q=polymer+clay+clock
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=polymer+clay+clock

Since you didn't particular like her style, is it just that you'd like to make clocks? or make larger things? or what?

Quote
I'm going to try and make one of the patterns using diagonal stripes that Slavik Jablan shows in the link you provided. If you have any advice on how to achieve this, that would be great.

Well, my first piece of advice is that this kind of pattern wouldn't be too hard to create, but it would be hard to create with precision (this is one where patience and personality-type come into play).  One problem is just keeping straight lines straight and undistored in general while reducing, and the other problem is the join ends of the straight lines since the point of matching is so small (and also has to be exact all the way down the side areas of the joined canes as well as just on the tops of the canes).  Some of the patterns on that page have lines which are offset from each other though which makes that last part easier.

So, I'd suggest first learning how to reduce and recombine really well without distortion so that you can recombine those kinds of canes with the kind of precision and matching that would be necessary for an even-looking, undistorted result (so check the Canes-Reducing page at my site, as well as some of the sections of the Canes-Instructions page I'll suggest below). Reducing canes like that more and more (as well as reducing their recombinations) will make any imperfectly-joined lines less and less obvious though.
The Canes-Info page also has info about keeping things precise as well as making cane-slice sheets, and cane-slice sheets will be covered more on the Sheets of Pattern page too.

The "New Quilt" pattern that CityZenCane did long ago would be most like those particular patterns, as well as some of the "quilt" patterns and symmetrical patterns (repeating) that various others have done too.  
Check those out on the Canes-Instruction page:
http://www.glassattic.com/polymer/canes--instructions.htm
 . . . especially under the following categories/sub-categories:  Symmetrical, Other Geometric/Etc, as well as the Layers>Stripes one I mentioned before, I think

Actually, I"ll just post this much now, then be back later... trying to just take a few shots of some old similar canes I did since I can't find them online for illustration, but haven't finished and need to upload to Photobucket, then here. . .  

(will also want to mention Sarah Shriver, Celtic canes, cane slice bowls, etc., in case I forget. . . )


Diane B.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009 12:54:36 PM by Diane B. » THIS ROCKS   Logged

POLYMER CLAY "ENCYCLOPEDIA" 
http://glassattic.com/polymer/contents.htm
few of my photos
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB
(had to move them from YahooPhotos, so many now without captions)
atomicjam
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009 05:27:47 PM »

Shock, Horror!!  Glass Attic Down???    Just tried to get on glass attic and all I get is a page load error?   You havn't been throwing stones have you?  Cheesy  lool

Quote
...Tracy Pittendreigh's clocks (aka Tracy Blease) are really cool... ...since you didn't particular like her style, is it just that you'd like to make clocks? or make larger things? or what?...

Don't get me wrong, I love that clock by Tracy.   I just meant I'd probably use different colors and forms (maby make it a little less 'girly' Wink) Though I really like the way it's leaning to one side.  Makes me think of time flying by.   What I'd like to experiment with is using both the highly detailed and complex patterns of canes with the nice smooth, flat transitions of skinner blends in the same piece.   So something inbetween both Tracy's and Jon's work.

Quote
...I'd suggest first learning how to reduce and recombine really well without distortion so that you can recombine those kinds of canes with the kind of precision and matching that would be necessary for an even-looking, undistorted result...

Agreed I'm going to need to learn how to reduce canes accurately.  I've just tried reducing one simply by rolling it out against an edge (its a square cane). Pulling it abit. Grabbing it and stretching. I didn't really apply much technique and was pretty heavy-handed with it. And the results whern't too good. Heres a piccy...  At the top is what I produced and at the bottom is all the tests, off-cuts and scrap.  It hasn't come out very well atall  Embarrassed Just handling and positioning the slices would distort them.



The original build was OKish (done last week).  The black lines where pretty square and straight to begin with.  But it has distorted quite alot with reduction.  And there was soo much waste.  I used nearly three 56g blocks of FIMO, and have ended up with 17.1g of usable cane (yes I weighed them).  I made lots of mistakes.   Though one re-combination was very short and fat, so I squeezed it in the middle and stretched it out, and to my surprise it came out fairly intact.  I guess that's the magic of millefiori canes Smiley

So my next mission will be mainly concentrating on accurate reduction techniques like you say.   This weekend is gonna be entirely spent on polyclay canes (Bring on the weekend).   I think I'll just stick to practicing with the diagonal layers at the moment so will have to have a read up on those as well as reduction techniques.

Quote
  ...Actually, I"ll just post this much now, then be back later... trying to just take a few shots of some old similar canes I did since I can't find them online for illustration, but haven't finished and need to upload to Photobucket, then here... .. 

I look forward to your follow-up post.  But please don't trouble yourself too much if you need to take photos and stuff.

Cheers,
Tom 
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Diane B.
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009 09:57:05 AM »

Quote
Shock, Horror!!  Glass Attic Down???    Just tried to get on glass attic and all I get is a page load error?   You havn't been throwing stones have you?  Cheesy  lool

I didn't see that yesterday, but my iPowerWeb host does occasionally hiccup. The hiccups haven't been frequent or usually lasted too long, and I don't want to do all the research again for moving unless necessary!, so I just put up with it. (Groan on the pun btw  Cheesy)

Just one of the things that happened yesterday was that my old digital camera suddenly stopped working, some of the functions anyway.  Took quite awhile to figure out that the card has gotten too old or something(?), and that was the last thing I could think of to check.  Lots of other stuff too.. yesterday turned out to be eventful and full in a lot of ways, mosty not fun.   Will at least post the photos I took though, shortly.

Btw, that's quite a cool cane!  And believe me, your reducing is a lot better than it could have been and especially for a beginner Cool.  Wait till you see the canes in my pic (which were done a long time ago before I knew any tips for keeping distortion down Shocked ).

I can see you also have a wavy blade Grin.  If you don't already know about some of the cool things you can do with it, check out my Cutters & Blades page, under the Wavy Blades category.  There may be a bit more on the Sheets of Pattern page too?

Diane B.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2009 10:01:30 AM by Diane B. » THIS ROCKS   Logged

POLYMER CLAY "ENCYCLOPEDIA" 
http://glassattic.com/polymer/contents.htm
few of my photos
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/DianeBB
(had to move them from YahooPhotos, so many now without captions)
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