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Topic: BOOKS ARE MAGIC! (lots of pictures)  (Read 15241 times)
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nataluna
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008 06:24:05 AM »

it's happening again all the time, just different people.  but we don't notice.  this is why the holocaust museum has a genocide watch on their website, because, while "never forget" is maybe possible, "never again" is still only a dream.  of course they probably even leave some groups out...
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2008 11:10:35 PM »

This is going way back, but the comment about the rabbi actually makes me very angry. He diminishes the suffering of others by saying only the Jews could experience a true Holocaust. (For starters, "holocaust" itself has a meaning separate of that of "THE holocaust"--as in, one could also refer to the genocides in Rwanda or Darfur as holocausts as well.) The Jews alone don't own the suffering--or the word. I don't see how the slaughter is any different-- innocent people killed because of things they simply and inherently are. Ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability are all traits that aren't controllable, and to say that it is worse to be killed for being a Jew than for having autism or being a gypsy is both outrageous and arrogant.


I have German ancestors, but we were here about 50-75 years before the rise of Hitler. We changed our last name from a traditional German name to a strange, artificial, and difficult-to-pronounce name so that our heritage would be less apparent and seem less nazi-like. My grandfather served in the military on the US' side. Both my father's brother and my mother's sister married into Jewish families, meaning all 4 of my cousins are Jewish. To top it all off, I'm feminist and bisexual. But this doesn't stop people from pulling that terrible trick of "You aren't Jewish, therefore you cannot understand, you cannot empathize, and you do not deserve your current situation." It's terribly disturbing what can be caused not only by psychopaths, but also by the people they leave in their bitter wakes.




It's nice to see though that I'm not the only non-Jew who had a fascination with the Holocaust. You created a beautiful book --- I do hope that you will keep adding to it as you see fit.
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nataluna
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008 05:04:43 AM »

i just want to add this for people who are interested.  cos something in the previous post made me remember it.

if you need a way to explain to people how these kinds of things can happen anywhere any time not just there and then, get them to listen and understand the lyrics to Planet P Project (Tony Carey)'s Go Out Dancing, Part I (1931)

this is an amazing album that looks at the nazi-time from different perspectives, while not morally equalizing those perspectives (ex: while showing you why a young german guy of that time might have joined the nazi-youth, the song lets you know he's wrong without saying so, while also letting you see why some young poor white guys in your town are hating on mexicans all the time; they are letting themselves be misled by leaders...)
the whole album maintains the idea of personal responsibility, which i think is terribly important.  there is one song that even warns you (sneakily, cleverly) not to believe everything you hear in songs!

this was recommended to me by a friend who is a human rights activist from an autistic/disability perspective.  oh yeah and btw, she's another non-jew (in my mind an "honorary jew", just cos sometimes she 'seems jewish' to me and to her other jewish friends) who has been fascinated by the holocaust...  for her it has been a useful obsession as a way to realize how dehumanization and genocide processes work, because these processes still happen all the time to loads of disabled people -- even in the most 'advanced' societies -- so it's very important to understand what's going on.

i think in some sense all the marginalized people have to have solidarity.  well, ideally, everybody would have solidarity.  ideally...
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MissMushroom
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2008 09:49:38 AM »

Absolutely brilliant, and beautiful. Thank you for this.
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2008 09:22:33 PM »

Wow, I can't believe the holocaust was missing. And it definitely was made after the holocaust? That just doesn't seem right.
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lbbshell
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2008 11:46:37 AM »

(For starters, "holocaust" itself has a meaning separate of that of "THE holocaust"--as in, one could also refer to the genocides in Rwanda or Darfur as holocausts as well.) The Jews alone don't own the suffering--or the word. I don't see how the slaughter is any different-- innocent people killed because of things they simply and inherently are. Ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability are all traits that aren't controllable, and to say that it is worse to be killed for being a Jew than for having autism or being a gypsy is both outrageous and arrogant.
Because I LIKE being devil's advocate:
Approximately 9-11 MILLION people were killed during WWII as a result of Hitler's cleansing programs.
Approximately 38 MILLION Civilians were killed outside of the cleansing program.
Approximately 22 MILLION Military Personnel were killed.
WWII was the deadliest, most expensive war in history.  Out of approximately 72 MILLION people that died as a result of WWII, 6 MILLION of them were, yes, Jewish.  However, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and many other encyclopedic references, elected to include The Holocaust under the heading of the whole of the WWII section, or in other places, because out of 72 MILLION people that died,  a significant enough number of people want The Holocaust to only represent 6 MILLION of them. 
So um... lets get real, huh?
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2008 09:15:25 PM »

^ I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my quote?

I'm not just saying that the JEWS don't own the word--I'm saying that WORLD WAR II doesn't own the word. It's the single biggest example of the concept of "holocaust", yes--but the event itself doesn't even own the word. It's kind of like the word "Renaissance" that means "rebirth". Yes, it also refers to a specific time and place, but that time and place is not the only meaning of that word, and it therefore doesn't own it.

So it's not just that the rabbi was offensive in excluding the suffering of others in the same event, it's that he was also offensive by characterizing their suffering as somehow more meaningful (or worse, basically) than that of others. When you consider that the Hutus hacked the Tutsis to death with machetes, this doesn't really seem fair, now does it? (Yeesh, whatever happened to solidarity?  Huh  )


But like I said, your post really didn't seem to connect to the quote, so I'm kind of confused here...

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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2008 07:31:27 AM »

I think one of the things I most enjoy about Craftster is the dialogue about others opinions on the issues that matter to us. Dialogue is so important.
To me, this is only my personal opinion, the word genocide most accurately represents the elimination of a people because of their ethnicity/race - not completely sure what the most appropriate term would be. The issue of genocide happened long before WWII and is currently going on around the world. Throughout history - and even into the dark recesses of written history - genocide has been an unfortunate part of life. My impression, only my personal impression, is that today, the genocide of the Jews during WWII is the most recent that people seem to be willing to talk about. And what is most frightening and disturbing to me is that we are now far enough removed from the actual event that I fear we are in danger of forgetting. Again I want to reiterate that these are only my personal opinions. I also find it disturbing that the genocide of the Armenians during the early 20th century, which was the event that triggered some of the laws that were in place and used specifically during WWII, has yet to be officially acknowledged by Turkey. The current genocide in Darfur, Rwanda, the list is too long to imagine. I guess my initial reaction to finding Hitler with so many pages and the Holocaust of the Jews during WWII missing immediately after is the danger of forgetting. Throughout history, in many ways, the Jews have been treated as second-class citizens. I have had many conversations with friends during graduate school about the reason genocide in Africa is overlooked is that those of North Western European descent - including a great many of those who are citizens of the US - don't seem as upset about these events is a lingering effect of racism of the early years of the colonization of the Americas - that somehow those people who do not "look like us" i.e. Caucasion, are somehow less worthy.

I'm sure that many of these opinions are quite controversial - I tend to be that way - I'm an Aquarius and I like to imagine that we are capable of achieving a future where "the inherent worth and dignity of every person" will someday be honored. I'm always one to push an idea to its logical conclusion, no matter how unrealistic it might seem to some. To me, the Holocaust is a symbol of this, something that has had a profound impact on my life. As the challenge was specifically about Childhood heroes, it seemed appropriate to me to limit my scope to a formative issue/experience of my childhood.

This is a link to a listing of genocides that happened just during the 20th Century...
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocides.htm

I hope that even though my views are controversial, we are able to continue this dialogue.

"Dialogue

Di"a*logue\ (?; 115), n. [OE. dialogue, L. dialogus, fr. Gr. ?, fr. ? to converse, dia` through + ? to speak: cf. F. dialogue. See Legend.]

1. A conversation between two or more persons; particularly, a formal conversation in theatrical performances or in scholastic exercises.

2. A written composition in which two or more persons are represented as conversing or reasoning on some topic; as, the Dialogues of Plato. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. "


Only in dialogue can we learn from history and from each other.

Selkie
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nataluna
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2008 09:54:59 AM »

Quote
To me, this is only my personal opinion, the word genocide most accurately represents the elimination of a people because of their ethnicity/race - not completely sure what the most appropriate term would be.

here is something official:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007043

but i would want to add that, in my opinion, "genocide" probably should also apply to other genetic aspects other than just race/ethnicity...
ever since it became possible to detect Trisomy21 before birth, people with Down Syndrome are being wiped out before they even get a chance to start out in the world.  i have read figures like that 90% known to have Down Syndrome are aborted.  the same may happen to autistics, when science finds the gene for autism...
not sure which group is next after that...
i know i keep going tangential here, and apologize if i repeat myself, but i just want people to remember and watch out, so that maybe it doesn't happen...

http://www.genocidewatch.org/eightstages.htm <--  this article is really important.
you will notice that the first steps toward genocide are separating and marking people into different groups, and then dehumanizing certain groups.

and this is part of why i do think things like this are allowed to continue because in many cases 'we' (americans? westerners? humans?) consider the people that this stuff happens to as not really people.  when asked, we may say "of course they are people!" but do we really feel that people who seem very different from us are Really People the same way that we are?!  i think a lot of the time the answer might be frightening. 
(Insert the 'appropriate' slur in the parentheses below:)
"oh well they're just (mentally retarded), they don't understand what is done to them"
"oh well they're just (mexicans), they're used to it."
"oh well they're just (africans), they die all the time."
"oh well there were too many (chinese) anyway."
i have heard things from my students (adults) close enough to the above to imply that the above might be what some people really think and feel.
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ichong
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2008 11:43:40 PM »

I'm the same way with the holocaust. I'm pretty positive I'm not Jewish anywhere done the line, and the books often do upset me, but I can't stop reading them. I have a strange connection, and fascination with them. Good to know I'm not alone, I always thought people would think it was odd.
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