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Topic: BOOKS ARE MAGIC! (lots of pictures)  (Read 18457 times)
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selkie
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« on: July 05, 2008 05:32:17 AM »

I was one of those kids who preferred to live in books...
Most of my childhood heroes were the heroines in my favorite books.



Although I'm sure I'll remember tons of other books that were influential, I've focused primarily on three...
Anne of Green Gables
Laura Ingalls Wilder
 & Raggedy Ann.

To balance the visionary/social justice/Utopian part of my Aquarian spirit, I devoured books about the Holocaust. There's no ready explanation for this, my family is not of Jewish descent (at least not that we know of - there is always a possibility...) I would bring home books with heart wrenching pictures from the camps and sit there for hours, sobbing. My mom kept asking me why I brought them home if they upset me so much. I didn't have an answer then and I still don't - the only thing that occurs to me is that perhaps I was looking for someone...

I decided to pay homage to books by altering a mid 1980's Encyclopedia Britannica. I've already used some of the set for a "book shelf" in my office - there are a lot of books in a complete set. So I grabbed one without checking to see which volume it was.


I started as you would with any altered book, ripping out pages...

I decided to use maps of the places where LM Montgomery, Laura Ingalls Wilder and Johnny Gruelle were from/where there stories were about, for section dividers and headed to AAA with a LONG list.







Every storybook needs a once upon a time...








And then my project took a turn of its own.

I realized that I had grabbed the H volume and decided to look up Holocaust for that section of my book. I flipped through, found the 5 pages about Hitler, got to Hob and the next entry was Holocene Epoch. After flipping back and forth for quite some time and realizing that none of the pages were stuck together and I really hadn't missed it, it just wasn't there...
I decided - metaphorically speaking - to put the Holocaust back into the Encyclopedia - at least mine...

When my husband got home - I told him about it not being there, he looked at me and said "So you're putting it back in?" It was really more of a statement - he knows me quite well.









I wanted to show my frustration with Hitler, but I realized that taking him out would symbolically show forgetting him and that would be as dangerous as taking out and forgetting the Holocaust - It was difficult to leave it in, but I settled upon the duct tape as a way of saying NO MORE...





I also decided to put in a lot more than five pages - so I'm guessing this will be a work in progress for quite some time - there are a lot of pages in an encyclopedia.

Selkie
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008 05:56:41 AM »

Wow, it is so great that you did this, I am of jewish decent and I always wondered about my history, you have just inspired me to find out more. The point about hitler having so many pages and the holocaust victims having non is very thoughtful, how could the encyclopedia people miss it out?
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008 06:08:48 AM »

wow, duct-taping Hitler.  it's almost poetic.  if only guys like him could all be duct-taped...

ETA:  not sure about the numbers, but while we're in Never Forget - Never Again mode, don't forget the non-Jewish victims, too.  nowadays people tend to remember that the Holocaust also targeted Gays, but often Gypsies(Roma) are still forgotten and there were also many political and "social" targets.  And before the Holocaust, Hitler practiced his extermination techniques on Disabled people...

and, sadly, the whole "never again" is very unlikely, as this sort of thing keeps happening all over to different groups.  i'm part Jewish and probably part Roma, but we sure don't have a monopoly on genocide...  this is the worst thing to remember...
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008 06:34:44 AM »

I had a really long conversation with a Rabbi at one point about the word Holocaust and his feelings about using the term - I don't necessarily agree with his thoughts, but they made me think long and hard and I'm no longer certain what I think... He told me that, for him, the word Holocaust should be used for the Jews because, for no personal reason whatsoever, the Jews, even those who were not practicing religious Jews, were targeted for ethnic genocide, babies, those who didn't even know they had Jewish grandparents because they had been practicing Christians for generations, etc...
Like I said, I can see his point, but it doesn't feel right for me...
It's not about political correctness for me, but I need to find a way to speak the truth as I understand it. Most of the Holocaust websites I found with my google search dealt primarily with the genocide of the Jews - that and I haven't come close to finishing the book - I've only got about 15 pages about the Holocaust at this point - and lots of room for more...

Thanks for the feedback - Selkie
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008 06:47:02 AM »

hey, selkie, i didn't mean my comments as a criticism, but more in the spirit of remembering the forgotten. 
and plus, seeing as we both are connected to the Autistic community and Autistics were also targetted... for example, i've read that Hans Asperger was separating out the people that later got labeled with his name, trying to show they didn't need to be killed along with the other Autistics and other Disabled people... (*_*) ?!  those were some twisted times to be a scientist in...
... i donno, i hope my comments weren't out of place or too negative: if they were, i am sorry...
sometimes i do get too tangential.

and i also, in the hurry of writing, forgot to say that the concept of your project is among my favorites in this competition.  for the protest/memory aspect, the coincidence aspect of how you took the H volume unintentionally, and because i was/am one of those that lives in books...
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008 06:54:04 AM »

Nataluna - I didn't take it as a criticism - I tend to OVERTHINK things - A LOT - and the whole speaking truth thing gets me as well - I'm sure if I had been there - I would've been on their list for many reasons - politics, books I've read, hopefully helping those who were targeted, resistance... I aspire to live my highest ideals, but it's easy to say that when your life isn't on the line...

You have to try really hard to offend me - and these are my favorite kind of dialogues!!! (I was on the speech and debate team in high school - go figure)  Grin

No offense taken in any way shape or form!

Selkie
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008 07:19:07 AM »

ok, (^_^)
and i am another overthinker -  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008 10:31:43 AM »

This is pretty awesome.  One of my favorite books when I was younger was "Number the Stars" by Louis Lowry. Have you ever read it?

Unfortunately/ fortunately, in high school I went to a holocaust symposium and heard tales from people that survived the holocaust, they were harrowing.  I say unfortunately because we then had to listen to these ridiculously rude "second and third generation survivors" tell us that we were all racist because we weren't Jewish, and we'll never understand what it was like.  Funny thing is, they will never understand either, they didn't live it, they didn't survive it, their parents did. Also, stating that a race of people is racist for not being of your race IS racist.  There are two things that really ticked me off about the symposium (besides being told again and again that I'm a horrible person), the first being that a "Second generation survivors" shushed the 80 something year old man who had actually survived something, (he told us stories of children having to burn people alive in the ovens when they didn't quite die from the gas, in some cases these were family members and even parents), screaming at him to speak up and reducing him to almost be n tears.   The other thing that ticked me off was the mentality they were trying to instill in us that the war only happened to the Jews.  As Nataluna brought up, it happened to others as well.  An exterior wall/living room in my grandma's home was destroyed by the bombing, they had been sitting in that room shortly before, it was only their neighbour saying the bombs were really close that day that saved their lives. (I would like to find and thank that family).  My dad's dad was a sniper in the war. The people that were appalled at the atrocities being committed to the Jews, Gypsies, Communists/Socialists, etc, were also killed.  The "second generation survivor" said that she couldn't talk to her dad's side of the family and was there anyone there that could say the same thing.  I raised my hand, she said that's right no one (which ticked off half my classmates).  It was sad how blind she had become by trying to cash in on such an awful tragedy. It seems that she isn't living in today, rather reveling in what happened.  I'm not saying we should forget the holocaust by any measure I'm just saying that we should love each other because of it and not place walls between us because someone is or isn't a Jew.  Incidentally, I would have been persecuted myself, as my great grandmother was Jewish (at least we're assuming so, her last name was Lazarus).   

Sorry about the rant. 
I really do like your book.  And this by no means is an attack at anyone on here, just a statement against that blindness that was displayed to me on that day.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008 03:13:57 PM »

ok something i didn't mention before, cos i was on another point, but right now i think it fits in the discussion...
i'm also part german. 
and i used to have like complexes about it, you know, did some distant relatives on one side kill or persecute some other distant relatives on the other side in the WWII??

... and i told this to my husband (he's colombian) and he said, "if you were a mestizo (mixed-race) south american, you wouldn't worry about this, because you wouldn't have to wonder.  you would KNOW that you were descended from the murderers and the murdered, from the rapists and their victims, from the colonizers and the colonized.  and that was the past, and you really can't do anything about it by worrying, so what matters is what you do now."  which was a really interesting way of looking at it.  it doesn't mean forget the past, but learn from it and do the right thing in the present.

maybe this is what those people, the ones that oxynitrate mentions, didn't understand.

ETA:  i was afraid to ask my German friend what her family believed during the Nazi-time.  but one day i finally asked her and it turns out that her mother's parents taught her not to believe the Nazi ideas.  and i was a bit relieved, because her mother is such a nice lady, very much a practicing catholic, and into protecting even animals as well as people.  so there was some quiet resistance going on, that i was not aware of, because you only ever hear of either the people who died for their resistance, or those who capitulated.  you don't usually hear of the ones who just stayed under the radar trying to survive, but not agreeing with what went on, either.  i suppose they were one other kind of victim of Hitler. 

ha... i will always think of him with duct-tape over him, from now on.
as Charlie Chaplin and Roberto Benigni showed, not taking dictators as seriously as they take themselves is also a great revenge.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008 03:30:58 PM »

You made a wonderful, beautiful journal book.  Lovely!
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008 03:43:58 PM »

Hey did you know that Prince Edward Island is celebrating a big anniversary this year for "Anne of Green Gables"Huh  Apparently the place is THE hot spot to be for fans of the book this year!  Just thought you'd want to know.  It would be an opportunity to add to your volume with an experience perhaps?Huh?

FANTASTIC idea, by the way.  It could become a really neat educational experience for teachers in high schools. 
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008 05:48:22 PM »

Nataluna:  Your husband said it beautifully! 

  My parents are both British, as such I've received a lot of criticism from a few of my Native friends.  The standard "your family stole this land from my people".  My parents are the first people from my family that came here, and that was in 1981, so my family did nothing of the sort, however, I remind them that you don't through the son of a murderer in prison because his father killed someone. I could start ranting about reparation payments here, but that's a bit much, and if you're a Canadian you already know how damning these handouts can be. (Side note in Canada women were considered property until 1982).

Selkie: I really would like to know if you have read "Number the Stars".
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2008 05:56:25 PM »

Oxynitrate - I've read Number the Stars - but it didn't come out until I was in college - there a quite a few teenage books that I've come across over the years that have really impressed me...

Nataluna - I had some experiences in HS - I have blonde hair, blue eyes, a German last name and I took German - there were many unkind comments tossed my way - of course, Senior year when we had our first Holocaust Symposium - I was the one who interpreted a passage from Sophies Choice.

Buttermilk - PEI sounds wonderful - of course I'm the one who waits until no-one will be around before I go someplace - crowds make me crazy - I hope there are lots of pictures...

I love the conversations I have on craftster - and my family likes that I don't have to have the same conversation with them over and over ad nauseum!

Selkie
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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008 04:48:10 PM »

as with other posters, I have to say that there Jews were not the only people persecuted by the Nazi's.  I'm a Developmental Services Worker student (meaning I work with adults/children/youth who are developmentally delayed), and I can tell you that there are millions and millions of people who had no voice, and never had their stories told.  I did an essay on the people who's stories weren't told (the Autistic, the DD, children/youth/adults with Down's, those who were mentally ill), and I can safely say that there isn't alot of information.  3 weeks of research only netted me 4 years of info.  Alot of the information I had overlapped, or was taken over by other information.  I love what you did, and I hope that nobody forgets that it wasn't only the Jewish that went through the genocide, but those who were perceived to be unhuman, or incomplete.  And your right, books ARE magic!
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008 08:59:55 PM »

This book is simply beautiful.
     I remember being in 5th grade when we studies the holocaust. I had to study a little boy named Edward. He has young, about 7 or 8 when the Jews were prosecuted. He was so little, he had brownish hair, that looked neat and combed back, and a round face, and i remembered thinking, he's such a small child, how could anyone bear to hurt him? His father was an executive with a company, and he was well off, along with his mother and brother. Eventually, he became ill when the Nazis injected him, at age 12, with tuberculosis, just to see what would happen to him. the was hanged 7 months later, along with his brother.
     I remember going to bed about a week into the project, praying for the souls of Edward and his family, for all the victims, for everyone who had to suffer a horrible death as a result of the holocaust.
     i think theres a lesson to learn from the holocaust. It originated from hate. the hate that Hitler had towards the Jews, to anyone he didnt consider worthy of living. The holocaust was a result of hate, and the 6 million who died wouldnt want anyone else to suffer from hate.
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008 06:29:19 AM »

My parents are both British, as such I've received a lot of criticism from a few of my Native friends.  The standard "your family stole this land from my people".  My parents are the first people from my family that came here, and that was in 1981, so my family did nothing of the sort, [...]

yeah if i ever get any flack from either my Black or my Native American students for being White in the South, i just tell them "hey you know when y'all were having all that stuff going on, MY people were over in Europe killing EACHOTHER..."  (ok i have no idea what 'my people' were doing in the 1600s through 1800s in Europe, but people being human, it's a safe bet)

on the other hand...  on the serious side, it's good to remember in order not to repeat the mistakes of the past, because what tends to happen is people just pick a different group to mistreat and think they are not doing the same thing.  right now in USA, the 'new' second-class existence seems to be for the Immigrants (ok, that's not new).  also Disabled people (especially groups that tend to be institutionalized) have never really gotten off the hook.
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008 05:22:45 PM »

Selkie
I have been catching up on the threads I've been reviewing and as I did, recalled your very touching craft project.  I got to thinking after reading one of the postings about the boy named Edward.  My father helped liberate several POW camps.  He's deceased now himself.  He spoke of the horrors a lot with me.  My uncle will not eat grilled meat to this day because he was one of the troops who liberated Aachen (sp?) 

Today while working behind my comfy desk at my well paid job I began to ponder on one of my first jobs--a lot of years ago --when I was a waitress.  I remembered having a particularly tough day and feeling grumpy.  Then I plopped a menu in front of a nice middle-aged lady, thinking to myself that I had just about had enough and I wasn't going to be nice to anyone else after the previous group had stiffed me for a tip and left a heck of a mess.  There I grumbled and got my pen and order pad ready and set my mouth on gripe mode.  Then I caught a glimpse of something odd as I flipped the order book and readied my pen and hovered over the booth.  The frail little well-dressed woman's arm had a number tatooed upon it.  So odd looking--on this perfectly coiffed lady--the tattoo of a letter "A" and some numbers. 

I knew what it meant.  My Dad and Uncle shared each day of my life while we grew up the terrible things they'd witnessed. 

My no good day suddenly melted.  I realized what a selfish no good rot I was for even imagining I could have a bad day in my air conditioned cafe with my little uniform, cap and apron, all the donuts I could hold and soda pop I could drink as pay if I would show up early and help with dishes.  Stiffed for a tip?  Well, as I said, today I sat in the office and said a prayer of thanks to G-d that I did not have a no good very bad day -- ever.
Thanks again for your craft.  Thanks for reminding us all.
Buttermilk
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2008 10:27:08 AM »

Selkie, I wanted to say thank you so much for your project. Thank you for the thought that sparked these conversations, and for the sincerity with which you started this. I think we might have been the same kid growing up! I felt the same way with my kindred spirit, Miss Anne with an E, and was fascinated and horrified by the Holocaust. I studied it almost obsessively for a long time, just trying to understand. I wished then that I could have had the kind of conversations going on now on this thread. You all made me cry at work today, and that's awesome.
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2008 02:02:07 PM »

Selkie, Thank you so much for your craft and this discussion.  It's very heartwarming to have a group of people, strangers no less, talk about a very difficult time in history, be able to openly communicate and not upset someone.  I'm a non-Jew, working for a Jewish organization and thankfully we don't get discriminated for not having lived through the Holocaust, but for not being "G-d's chosen". 

Growing up I would tell people that I was an Irish Communist Nazi, can you guess which nationality that I'm most proud of?  And thankfully, we've since found out that we're not Russian or German, but we don't know what we are......

I had two thoughts about the encyclopedia.  One, could the listing be under genocide?  And, have you done a search to see if the publisher had problems with that edition for omitting the holocaust?

Thank you everyone, for your humbling stories.
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2008 10:37:39 PM »

Wow. This thread has some amazing comments in it. I just had to hit the "this rocks" button. I think it's amazing what you did, Selkie. I think it's ironic too that Hitler, the evil one, gets 5 pages written about him and the 6 million innocent people get nothing. Also, I was wondering if you've ever read the book "The Wave" by Todd Strasser. It's kind of a short book, and I found it in the teen section of my bookstore. It's a true story about a history teacher who tried to make his student's understand how the Nazis could have so many followers, and how history could repeat itself. It was sort of an eyeopener to me of the danger of the holocaust ever happening again.
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008 06:24:05 AM »

it's happening again all the time, just different people.  but we don't notice.  this is why the holocaust museum has a genocide watch on their website, because, while "never forget" is maybe possible, "never again" is still only a dream.  of course they probably even leave some groups out...
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2008 11:10:35 PM »

This is going way back, but the comment about the rabbi actually makes me very angry. He diminishes the suffering of others by saying only the Jews could experience a true Holocaust. (For starters, "holocaust" itself has a meaning separate of that of "THE holocaust"--as in, one could also refer to the genocides in Rwanda or Darfur as holocausts as well.) The Jews alone don't own the suffering--or the word. I don't see how the slaughter is any different-- innocent people killed because of things they simply and inherently are. Ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability are all traits that aren't controllable, and to say that it is worse to be killed for being a Jew than for having autism or being a gypsy is both outrageous and arrogant.


I have German ancestors, but we were here about 50-75 years before the rise of Hitler. We changed our last name from a traditional German name to a strange, artificial, and difficult-to-pronounce name so that our heritage would be less apparent and seem less nazi-like. My grandfather served in the military on the US' side. Both my father's brother and my mother's sister married into Jewish families, meaning all 4 of my cousins are Jewish. To top it all off, I'm feminist and bisexual. But this doesn't stop people from pulling that terrible trick of "You aren't Jewish, therefore you cannot understand, you cannot empathize, and you do not deserve your current situation." It's terribly disturbing what can be caused not only by psychopaths, but also by the people they leave in their bitter wakes.




It's nice to see though that I'm not the only non-Jew who had a fascination with the Holocaust. You created a beautiful book --- I do hope that you will keep adding to it as you see fit.
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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2008 05:04:43 AM »

i just want to add this for people who are interested.  cos something in the previous post made me remember it.

if you need a way to explain to people how these kinds of things can happen anywhere any time not just there and then, get them to listen and understand the lyrics to Planet P Project (Tony Carey)'s Go Out Dancing, Part I (1931)

this is an amazing album that looks at the nazi-time from different perspectives, while not morally equalizing those perspectives (ex: while showing you why a young german guy of that time might have joined the nazi-youth, the song lets you know he's wrong without saying so, while also letting you see why some young poor white guys in your town are hating on mexicans all the time; they are letting themselves be misled by leaders...)
the whole album maintains the idea of personal responsibility, which i think is terribly important.  there is one song that even warns you (sneakily, cleverly) not to believe everything you hear in songs!

this was recommended to me by a friend who is a human rights activist from an autistic/disability perspective.  oh yeah and btw, she's another non-jew (in my mind an "honorary jew", just cos sometimes she 'seems jewish' to me and to her other jewish friends) who has been fascinated by the holocaust...  for her it has been a useful obsession as a way to realize how dehumanization and genocide processes work, because these processes still happen all the time to loads of disabled people -- even in the most 'advanced' societies -- so it's very important to understand what's going on.

i think in some sense all the marginalized people have to have solidarity.  well, ideally, everybody would have solidarity.  ideally...
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2008 09:49:38 AM »

Absolutely brilliant, and beautiful. Thank you for this.
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« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2008 09:22:33 PM »

Wow, I can't believe the holocaust was missing. And it definitely was made after the holocaust? That just doesn't seem right.
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2008 11:46:37 AM »

(For starters, "holocaust" itself has a meaning separate of that of "THE holocaust"--as in, one could also refer to the genocides in Rwanda or Darfur as holocausts as well.) The Jews alone don't own the suffering--or the word. I don't see how the slaughter is any different-- innocent people killed because of things they simply and inherently are. Ethnicity, sexual orientation, and disability are all traits that aren't controllable, and to say that it is worse to be killed for being a Jew than for having autism or being a gypsy is both outrageous and arrogant.
Because I LIKE being devil's advocate:
Approximately 9-11 MILLION people were killed during WWII as a result of Hitler's cleansing programs.
Approximately 38 MILLION Civilians were killed outside of the cleansing program.
Approximately 22 MILLION Military Personnel were killed.
WWII was the deadliest, most expensive war in history.  Out of approximately 72 MILLION people that died as a result of WWII, 6 MILLION of them were, yes, Jewish.  However, Encyclopedia Brittanica, and many other encyclopedic references, elected to include The Holocaust under the heading of the whole of the WWII section, or in other places, because out of 72 MILLION people that died,  a significant enough number of people want The Holocaust to only represent 6 MILLION of them. 
So um... lets get real, huh?
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2008 09:15:25 PM »

^ I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my quote?

I'm not just saying that the JEWS don't own the word--I'm saying that WORLD WAR II doesn't own the word. It's the single biggest example of the concept of "holocaust", yes--but the event itself doesn't even own the word. It's kind of like the word "Renaissance" that means "rebirth". Yes, it also refers to a specific time and place, but that time and place is not the only meaning of that word, and it therefore doesn't own it.

So it's not just that the rabbi was offensive in excluding the suffering of others in the same event, it's that he was also offensive by characterizing their suffering as somehow more meaningful (or worse, basically) than that of others. When you consider that the Hutus hacked the Tutsis to death with machetes, this doesn't really seem fair, now does it? (Yeesh, whatever happened to solidarity?  Huh  )


But like I said, your post really didn't seem to connect to the quote, so I'm kind of confused here...

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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2008 07:31:27 AM »

I think one of the things I most enjoy about Craftster is the dialogue about others opinions on the issues that matter to us. Dialogue is so important.
To me, this is only my personal opinion, the word genocide most accurately represents the elimination of a people because of their ethnicity/race - not completely sure what the most appropriate term would be. The issue of genocide happened long before WWII and is currently going on around the world. Throughout history - and even into the dark recesses of written history - genocide has been an unfortunate part of life. My impression, only my personal impression, is that today, the genocide of the Jews during WWII is the most recent that people seem to be willing to talk about. And what is most frightening and disturbing to me is that we are now far enough removed from the actual event that I fear we are in danger of forgetting. Again I want to reiterate that these are only my personal opinions. I also find it disturbing that the genocide of the Armenians during the early 20th century, which was the event that triggered some of the laws that were in place and used specifically during WWII, has yet to be officially acknowledged by Turkey. The current genocide in Darfur, Rwanda, the list is too long to imagine. I guess my initial reaction to finding Hitler with so many pages and the Holocaust of the Jews during WWII missing immediately after is the danger of forgetting. Throughout history, in many ways, the Jews have been treated as second-class citizens. I have had many conversations with friends during graduate school about the reason genocide in Africa is overlooked is that those of North Western European descent - including a great many of those who are citizens of the US - don't seem as upset about these events is a lingering effect of racism of the early years of the colonization of the Americas - that somehow those people who do not "look like us" i.e. Caucasion, are somehow less worthy.

I'm sure that many of these opinions are quite controversial - I tend to be that way - I'm an Aquarius and I like to imagine that we are capable of achieving a future where "the inherent worth and dignity of every person" will someday be honored. I'm always one to push an idea to its logical conclusion, no matter how unrealistic it might seem to some. To me, the Holocaust is a symbol of this, something that has had a profound impact on my life. As the challenge was specifically about Childhood heroes, it seemed appropriate to me to limit my scope to a formative issue/experience of my childhood.

This is a link to a listing of genocides that happened just during the 20th Century...
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocides.htm

I hope that even though my views are controversial, we are able to continue this dialogue.

"Dialogue

Di"a*logue\ (?; 115), n. [OE. dialogue, L. dialogus, fr. Gr. ?, fr. ? to converse, dia` through + ? to speak: cf. F. dialogue. See Legend.]

1. A conversation between two or more persons; particularly, a formal conversation in theatrical performances or in scholastic exercises.

2. A written composition in which two or more persons are represented as conversing or reasoning on some topic; as, the Dialogues of Plato. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. "


Only in dialogue can we learn from history and from each other.

Selkie
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2008 09:54:59 AM »

Quote
To me, this is only my personal opinion, the word genocide most accurately represents the elimination of a people because of their ethnicity/race - not completely sure what the most appropriate term would be.

here is something official:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007043

but i would want to add that, in my opinion, "genocide" probably should also apply to other genetic aspects other than just race/ethnicity...
ever since it became possible to detect Trisomy21 before birth, people with Down Syndrome are being wiped out before they even get a chance to start out in the world.  i have read figures like that 90% known to have Down Syndrome are aborted.  the same may happen to autistics, when science finds the gene for autism...
not sure which group is next after that...
i know i keep going tangential here, and apologize if i repeat myself, but i just want people to remember and watch out, so that maybe it doesn't happen...

http://www.genocidewatch.org/eightstages.htm <--  this article is really important.
you will notice that the first steps toward genocide are separating and marking people into different groups, and then dehumanizing certain groups.

and this is part of why i do think things like this are allowed to continue because in many cases 'we' (americans? westerners? humans?) consider the people that this stuff happens to as not really people.  when asked, we may say "of course they are people!" but do we really feel that people who seem very different from us are Really People the same way that we are?!  i think a lot of the time the answer might be frightening. 
(Insert the 'appropriate' slur in the parentheses below:)
"oh well they're just (mentally retarded), they don't understand what is done to them"
"oh well they're just (mexicans), they're used to it."
"oh well they're just (africans), they die all the time."
"oh well there were too many (chinese) anyway."
i have heard things from my students (adults) close enough to the above to imply that the above might be what some people really think and feel.
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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2008 11:43:40 PM »

I'm the same way with the holocaust. I'm pretty positive I'm not Jewish anywhere done the line, and the books often do upset me, but I can't stop reading them. I have a strange connection, and fascination with them. Good to know I'm not alone, I always thought people would think it was odd.
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lbbshell
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2008 01:48:00 AM »

^ I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my quote?


Sorry, I was reposting your statement because it was true.  You explicitly stated what really needed to be said, which is just that 'holocaust' is not a single genitive term related to WWII.  Sorry for the confusion.  And then there was my rant.
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